Posts by Sea Breeze

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

Sea Breeze

@aquseed,

Symbolic interpretation of literature has plagued the church from near the beginnig. It's initial promoters gave sometimes wonderful, if outlandish, exposition on scripture. But, it opened the door for later more unscrupulous people, especially heretics to distort clear meaning of scripture.

Amillenniaists do expound on the new birth and the ramifications of "the kingdom is with you". That's just fine, but it is not the only facet of the kingdom over time.

This issue is a prime example on how to allow the bible to interpret itself when symbols are used. If the symbol keys (meanings) are not provided, it is license, and not proper biblical exegesis being employed. I posted this on another thread a few days ago, For instance:

Why didn't the apostles preach the Good News of the Kingdom instead of the Ministry of Reconcilition?

Paul clearly stated that God gave the apostles the ministry of reconciliation to preach to the Gentiles about.

As always, the bible answers itself and there is no need to shop around for theologians who may or may not be filled with the Holy Spirit that guides believers is all tuth. The answers are found in the Mystery Kingdom Parables, one in particular.

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

Mt. 13: 44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Most people interpret this short parable to mean that it is about a man who became a believer and sold everything he had to cherish and posess his new found faith.

That is NOT what this parable is about. The answer key is clearly outlined in vss 37-39

37 - 39 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, now that we know that the "Man" is none other than Jesus Christ, and the "Field" is the world we can reread the parable and understand what Jesus meant about the Kingdom:

Mt. 13: 44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Jesus is the man who because of his great love for the world of mankind, gave up everything he owned and purchased the field the (world of humankind) with his own blood.

Jesus himself is the treasure, he hides it "in the field" inside of people. Again: Jesus himself is the kingdom that he hides inside of believers:

Luke 17: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Other scriptures echo this:

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you... Col. 3: 15

Also:

I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: of whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory - Col. 1: 25-27

Clearly the Kingdom of God exists in not one place, but TWO.

First: During the Church Age, the Kingdom of God exists in its mystery form, not readily discernible, hidden in "the field" inside of (mostly gentile) believers when they become "born again" and receive a new spirit as a downpayment for the entire redemption of the believer's soul and body to come.

Secondly: The literal Kindom of God will suddenly manifest when Jesus physically returns to end the genocidal reign of the Anti-Christ and establish his 1000 year reign on earth. If he didn't return, scriptures says that unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved.

This (literal kingdom message) will be incredibly GOOD NEWS, but to who? Not you and me living in relative peace during the church age. No, but it will be fantastic news to those living during the reign of the Anti-Christ who through his various wars and conquests subjugates nearly the entire world where perhaps 2/3 to 3/4 of earth's population will be killed.

If you happen to be alive on earth at this time, for you the only thing that could count as good news, is if someone told you that a King was coming with the military muscle to unseat this genocidal Anti-Christ. A message about the Kingdom inside of you will not be good news at that time. Only a military solution that will stop the genocide will count as "good news"....someone who can put an end to all the killing.

And this is exacly what Jesus was talking about when addressing his Jewish friends in answer to the question, "When will the things be and what will be the sign of your coming....and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and the the need will come".

144,000 male Jewish virgins will spearhead that global message. The real 144k will do it, not the fake ones in New York who claim to be (spiritual ) Jews. Remember, the Jews are still under blindness and are destined to go through the Great Tribulation (along with the rest of unbelieving mankind.)

The Church will not be on earth at this time. Having not been "appointed to wrath" they will escape the GT when they are evuacated at the Rapture.

The bottom line is that the Kingdom of God exists in its mystery form (inside the hearts of believers) during the church-age, but will suddenly manifest physically at worst of the Great Tribulation.

There are hundreds of scriptures and prophecies in the bible that speak of a literal kindom of God during the 1K reign of Christ. To just spiritualize this all away without a biblical key (like the kingdom parable example I provided above) on how to determine the meaning of the supposedly symbolic kindom verse under consideration is not sound biblical exegesis.

Symbolic interpretation might be entertaining and mosly harmless in the hands of a born-again Christian. But an unsaved heretic using the same device can wreck a lot of havoc on anyone attempting to understand the clear meaning of scripture through their twisted lens.

15

The Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the...organization.

by candidlynuts in

i remember going out in service using the truth book .

" the truth that leads to everlasting life".

in its final couple of years, i remember how the catholic church's attempts to control what people read was part of our presentation.

Sea Breeze

The 1971 book The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah" devotes chapter 4 - "Commissioned to Speak in the Divine Name" - to outlining why the Watch Tower Society was chosen in 1919 to "speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah."

"commissioned to serve as the mouthpiece and active agent of Jehovah … Whom could the real "chariot" of Jehovah's organization roll up to and confront that He might bestow upon this qualified one the commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah?" The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah" - How? pp.59,61

Catholic Catechism #969 “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” Clearly the Catholic Church has lifted titles for the Holy Spirit and applied them to Mary. The title Mediatrix is the feminized version of Jesus‟ title as Mediator. The RCC makes Mary a co-mediator.

Catholic Catechism # 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the 7 bishops and of the whole company of the faithful. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

Like the Watchtower, the Pope sees himself as the visible head of God’s Kingdom on earth as opposed to the invisible authority of Jesus Christ. However, early Christians walked by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor. 5:7).

Like the RCC teaching that Mary is a Co-Mediator with Christ, Watchtower sees themselves as a similar co-mediator.

One of the Pope’s titles is the Vicar of Christ. The word vicar comes from the Latin word vicarius meaning substitution. The on-line version of the Pocket Catholic Dictionary defines the Vicar of Christ as: “The Pope, visible head of the Church on earth, acting for and in the place of Christ”.

However, this is in serious conflict with scripture. Can there be two heads on one body?

… Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. - Ephesians 5:23

Also like the Catholic Church which claims its traditions and unique teachings are equal to that of the bible, the Watchtower also views its teachings as part of the bible with the same authority:

Watchtower December 15, 2008, pg. 28 – “Our coming to know „the truth‟ - the entire body of Christian teachings that has become part of the Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.

10

Why did God give the Ministry of Reconciliation (Justification) to the apostles instead of the Kingdom message?

by Sea Breeze in

why did god give the ministry of reconciliation (justification) to the apostles when starting churches rather that the kingdom message in matt.

24: 14 that jesus spoke about?

2 cor.

Sea Breeze

All excellent points Vanderhoven. I counted the phrase "gospel of ______ " in the Textus Receptus (King James Version) once and this is what I found:

Gospel of Jesus Christ (or Christ ) – 12 times

Gospel of God – 7 times

Gospel of the kingdom – 4 times

Gospel of peace – 2 times

Gospel of the grace of God – 1 time

Gospel of your salvation – 1 time

Gospel of the uncircumcision – 1 time

Gospel of the circumcision – 1 time

Gospel of his Son – 1 time

Putting the list in one place makes it easy to see that by far the good news is about (in order of frequency):

1. Jesus / God (salvation & grace)

2. Kingdom

So, the salvation and grace that is offered by God through the person of Jesus is the primary message of what the Kingdom is, in the New Testament. He is the one who predicted that he would be killed and that he would resurrect himself from the dead...... something only God could do. He is the one who guarantees our safe passage into God's family with his own blood. Jesus is primarily the good news. We are all related to him as sons and daughters of Adam, hence he has the legal right to redeem us as our Kinsman Redeemer and pay our debt if he chooses to do so. He chose to do so.

Yet, Jesus singled out the good news of the Kingdom when speaking to his closest Jewish friends about end times, the end of one dispensation (of grace) and the beginning of another (the kingdom age).

But, Paul later stated that God gave the apostles the ministry of reconciliation to preach to the Gentiles about.

Why the seeming discrepency in messages? That is what this tread is all about.

As always, the bible answers itself and there is no need to shop around for theologians who may or may not be filled with the Holy Spirit that guides believers is all tuth. The answers are found in the Mystery Kingdom Parables, one in particular.

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

Mt. 13: 44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Most people interpret this short parable to mean that it is about a man who became a believer and sold everything he had to cherish and posess his new found faith.

That is NOT what this parable is about. The answer key is clearly outlined in vss 37-39

37 - 39 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, now that we know that the "Man" is none other than Jesus Christ, and the "Field" is the world we can reread the parable and understand what Jesus meant about the Kingdom:

Mt. 13: 44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Jesus is the man who because of his great love for the world of mankind, gave up everything he owned and purchased the field the (world of humankind) with his own blood.

Jesus himself is the treasure, he hides it "in the field" inside of people. Again: Jesus himself is the kingdom that he hides inside of believers:

Luke 17: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Other scriptures echo this:

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you... Col. 3: 15

Also:

I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: of whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory - Col. 1: 25-27

Clearly the Kingdom of God exists in not one place, but TWO.

First: During the Church Age, the Kingdom of God exists in its mystery form, not readily discernible, hidden in "the field" inside of (mostly gentile) believers when they become "born again" and receive a new spirit as a downpayment for the entire redemption of the believer's soul and body to come.

Secondly: The literal Kindom of God will suddenly manifest when Jesus physically returns to end the genocidal reign of the Anti-Christ and establish his 1000 year reign on earth. If he didn't return, scriptures says that unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved.

This will be incredibly GOOD NEWS, but to who? Not you and me living in relative peace during the church age. No, but it will be fantastic news to those living during the reign of the Anti-Christ who through his various wars and conquests subjugates nearly the entire world where perhaps 2/3 of earth's population will die.

If you are alive at this time, for you the only thing that could count as good news, is if someone told you that a King was coming with the military muscle to unseat this Royal Genocidal Jackass - the Anti-Christ. A message about the Kingdom inside of you will not be good news at that time. Only a military solution that will stop the genocide will count as "good news"....someone who can put an end to all the killing.

And this is exacly what Jesus was talking about when addressing his Jewish friends in answer to the question, "When will the things be adn what will be the sign of your coming....and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and the the need will come".

144,000 male Jewish virgins will spearhead that global message. The real 144k will do it, not the fake ones in New York who claim to be (spiritual ) Jews. Remember, the Jews are still under blindness and are destined to go through the Great Tribulation (along with the rest of unbelieving mankind.) The Church will not be on earth at this time. Having not been "appointed to wrath" they will escape the GT when they are evuacated at the Rapture.

So what is the real take-away of all this for you and me living in 2024 as XJW's?

If you really want to defeat the Watchtower. If they have stolen your family, your mental health and happiness; if you really want to win - then Jesus has a message for you:

Rev. 3: 9 - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Whether you are a believer or not; If you are an XJW, you have the same enemies as Jesus does. He wants you to know that. If you accept his invitation to get your sins forgiven and allow him to rule in your hearts during this age of grace, then he will exalt you in due time and you will witness Knorr, Franz, Russell and all the other impostors be forced to bend their knee before king Jesus, and they will be forced to know, before they are cast into everlasting fire, that Jesus loved you and rejected them.

10

Why did God give the Ministry of Reconciliation (Justification) to the apostles instead of the Kingdom message?

by Sea Breeze in

why did god give the ministry of reconciliation (justification) to the apostles when starting churches rather that the kingdom message in matt.

24: 14 that jesus spoke about?

2 cor.

Sea Breeze

I find it hard to believe that all the JW apologists on this board are just going to let this thread die. Isn't anyone going to try to defend the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom as Jesus commanded?

After all, this it the source of JW's greatest pride. They rightly point out (every possible chance they get) that they are THE ONLY ONES PREACHING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM.

Why is the fact that God gave the apostles a different message not shocking to everyone here?

10

Why did God give the Ministry of Reconciliation (Justification) to the apostles instead of the Kingdom message?

by Sea Breeze in

why did god give the ministry of reconciliation (justification) to the apostles when starting churches rather that the kingdom message in matt.

24: 14 that jesus spoke about?

2 cor.

Sea Breeze

@KerryKing,

John Dominic Crossan is widely regarded by the most prominent Pastors of our time as a "scholarly" arch-heretic. He is the darling of athesists and secularists. He doubts most of the biblical eye-witness accounts and thinks Jesus' body was eaten by dogs instead of being resurrected. This post is about what believers think, not skeptics.

The fact of the matter is that starting with Jesus and looking forward, the New Testament clearly shows that there are TWO messages than must be proclaimed on the earth. The only question is whether or not they should be proclaimed at the same time or in some sort of sequence. If in a sequence, when should one stop and the other begin?

@Vidquun

You have astutely noted that the Kingdom message that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 is soundly in the context of end-times.

v. 3 - what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The first thing that Jesus says in response to this question is to watch out that no one deceives you. In other words, Jesus is saying that there is going to be a lot of deception around this topic, so stick with what my apostles say that I have personally trained.

10

Why did God give the Ministry of Reconciliation (Justification) to the apostles instead of the Kingdom message?

by Sea Breeze in

why did god give the ministry of reconciliation (justification) to the apostles when starting churches rather that the kingdom message in matt.

24: 14 that jesus spoke about?

2 cor.

Sea Breeze

Why did God give the ministry of reconciliation (Justification) to the apostles when starting churches rather that the Kingdom message in Matt. 24: 14 that Jesus spoke about?

2 Cor. 18-20

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

42

Two new Governing Body members

by slimboyfat in

jeddoly and rumph???.

who are they?

.

Sea Breeze

I don’t understand. If he was a full-time regular pioneer since 1990 when did he have time to do all his real estate stuff?

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

Sea Breeze

Biblically speaking, there is only one hope for Christians. And that hope is heavenly.

@Vanderhoven

That is the hope for Christian believers, yes - during the church-age. Paul wrote to be "absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

But during the Millennial Reign, the earth will be populated with Jews and Non-Jews - All Great Tribulation Survivors, and later their children.

The Judgment of the Nations will be the first Judicial proceedings from King Jesus as he sits on his throne in Jerusalem. It will determine which of the Tribulation Survivors get in and which ones do not.

Luke 19 27 - But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’ ”

These slain ones will go to hades after they are slain to await the final Judgment at the Great White Throne after the thousand years have ended when there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

The people who are all good with Jesus being King are allowed to enter his Thousand Year Reign.

Untimately we all end up in eternity after the Great White Throne Judgment where the entire universe is rolled up like a scroll and the whole universe is recreated again.

This is the new heavens and new earth referred to several times in scripture.

42

Two new Governing Body members

by slimboyfat in

jeddoly and rumph???.

who are they?

.

Sea Breeze

I wonder how many people he has convinced to "put faith in God' s Victorious Organization" instead of Jesus himself?

Parasites, just like the Pharisees.

56

Annual Meeting live updates

by ukpimo in

i have obtained the live link for the annual meeting tomorrow:.

annual meeting live link.

the meeting will begin at 9:45am eastern time, for those of us in the uk, that will be 2:45pm.

Sea Breeze

Change of understanding: The destruction of Babylon the Great will be all countries willingly giving their power over to the united nations to destroy it.

Does this mean Jehovah's Witnesses will no longer view their Christian neighbors as whores, as in the whore of babylon the great? I'm mean, WT taught for a very long time that church goers were the daughters of the greatest whore of them all - Christendom.

If Christians are no longer filthy whores, maybe JW's will interact more with them.

But I do so miss the clairty of the good 'ole days when WT leaders like Knorr and Franz knew who was a harlot and who wasn't.